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Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box)

Re: Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box) – April 30, 2009 8:22 PM (edited 4/30/09 4:22 PM)
Balerion (1224 posts) Elite Powergamer
Rating: Not Rated
Because doing so is setting up a different goal for site points than the one that they have previously worked to achieve?

I like Cuzzo's examples here too, things map pretty cleanly this way.

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I really think the three “!”s really captures the exuberance that Clair must have been feeling when he almost said it. -Cuzzo
Re: Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box) – April 30, 2009 8:27 PM (edited 4/30/09 4:27 PM)
Talraen (2373 posts) Doesn't Play with Others
Rating: Not Rated
I don't think the trivia module idea contradicts the idea of the site score. You earn points for contributing to the site. In this case you will earn points for posting questions, answering questions, and getting questions right. We already reward people more for positive ratings, attributed quotes (including more points for more "yes" votes), so rewarding people for correct trivia answers is hardly out of line. And besides, people are already getting points for all this stuff. I'm just trying to make an actual UI so it's not a hack job. And yes, Cuzzo's breakdown works fine, but why stop there?

Re: Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box) – April 30, 2009 8:33 PM (edited 4/30/09 4:33 PM)
Balerion (1224 posts) Elite Powergamer
Rating: Not Rated
Because not stopping there is going to put an inordinate amount of emphasis on this portion of the site. Introducing the chat all but killed most of the forums. I think it's unlikely that a new module would kill the chat, but it is liable to rate it to a ridiculous extent.

As it is, Cuzzo's method is still overly weighted - people get points in the polls far more often than they get positive ratings on threads.

I don't have a huge care for the point system as it is, and I think you know that, but if you're going to have a point system do you really want to skew it to the point where an inordinate percentage of all points are earned through one module?

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I really think the three “!”s really captures the exuberance that Clair must have been feeling when he almost said it. -Cuzzo
Re: Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box) – April 30, 2009 8:44 PM (edited 4/30/09 4:44 PM)
Talraen (2373 posts) Doesn't Play with Others
Rating: Not Rated
OK, there are two separate issues at hand here, and I'm not sure where you stand on one of them. The first issue is how many points these things are worth, and the second is what (if any) restrictions there should be on posting them. It's the second I'm not sure about.

Now, if you agree that the number of questions you can post ought to be limited, I don't see the problem. The points given out will be generally comparable whether they're based on how many points you get or just having gotten any at all. So I assume you disagree regarding question limits.

If that's the case, than the worst-case scenario you describe (where trivia takes over the site) seems far more likely without question restrictions. In the system I've proposed, one person could post an absolute maximum of 21 questions per week, or four per weekday, and each one would be worth a negligible number of points. (They could instead post 5 questions per week totaling 21 points and those questions would be worth approximately the same number of points.) Even if the top six users all posted four questions a day, that's 24 questions per day. It's hardly going to fill up all the hours we waste here.

Now if the number of questions is not restricted, two things change. First, the point values for participation decrease and become dangerously unstable. The first time someone (even someone at iloling) decides to post 100 questions in a day, I'm going to have to make them worth even less. It's more of an issue than posting 100 threads because if someone does that they'll just be ignored (and possibly banned), whereas one could legitimately come up with 100 interesting questions in one day. And that would have a good chance of breaking the site.

By controlling the question output, I can keep scores stable and fair, and wouldn't have to react to as many potential forms of abuse. And if you actually have 100 questions you want to ask, the scheduling feature makes that very possible. (The plan is that if you are out of questions for the day it will automatically schedule it for the next available day, so you can just keep entering questions without worrying too much.)

Re: Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box) – May 1, 2009 12:26 PM (edited 5/1/09 8:26 AM)
Cuzzdog (1522 posts) Head of Gamer Corner R&D
Rating: Not Rated
Actually, I think Matt's main concern, and mine as well, is not the amount of questions for the day, but tieing the amount of site points you get based on the number of game points you get. If I'm up to date of your current thinking, you're suggesting each question be worth up to a max total game point value based on the question poster's activity. Lets say, for the sake of simplicity, you make each game point earned worth 1/10 site points. Let's also say I've been doing DFtL's for so long that I can now hand out 1,000 game points per question. Now you have a situation where just by answering one question right, I can hand out 100 site points to anyone who plays my game. This means anyone concerned with site points, but not playing my game, is SOoL.

Instead, it's a much simpler solution to let the question posters assign as many points as they want per question and just have site points based on whether the answer is correct or not. This follows the current model fairly closely and you already know from months of observation that such a model is fairly balanced.

Also, I have no idea what your fascination is with trying to limit the amount of content that can be posted in a single day. So what if someone wants to post 100 questions all at once? From what we've laid out so far, it's not possible to answer any question without a race to see who answers first, so the questions can just sit there till the user's ready to answer them. I don't understand why you think you can ignore 100 threads any easier than you can ignore 100 questions. What's to stop the person from posting the 100 questions in thread form if they want them all to show up on the same day? I do like the idea of the scheduler, and I can see myself using it already, but I think it's a mistake and a waste of your time to put a limitation on the number of questions that can posted in one day.

Re: Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box) – May 1, 2009 1:24 PM (edited 5/1/09 9:26 AM)
Talraen (2373 posts) Doesn't Play with Others
Rating: Not Rated
Two aspects of the point system prevent what you're describing from being a concern. First, whatever method is used to determine how many points you can hand out per day will progress very slowly and take longer for each point. As an example, it might take 50 questions to get to 4 points, 150 more to get to 5, then 500 to get to 6, 1500 to get to 7, 4500 to get to 8, etc. We're talking exponential increases here - the difference between the top guy and any person making questions, in terms of site points handed out, won't be that significant.

EDIT: Oh right, and the other reason. The points you earn also have diminishing returns, so earning double the points only gets you maybe 150% the site points, and triple only 200%, etc. The system is designed to prevent large amounts of anything from breaking it, which is why I'm more concerned with the idea of handing out full points to everyone than handing out all your points to one person.

Re: Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box) – May 1, 2009 1:33 PM (edited 5/1/09 9:33 AM)
Cuzzdog (1522 posts) Head of Gamer Corner R&D
Rating: Not Rated
Ok, so the progression goes slowly. So what? There's still the very real chance that eventually a single game could hand out much more points to a single person than any other activity. And if there's not that chance, they why go to the trouble of all this over-engineering? It sounds a lot like you're saying it won't be a problem because your proposed system will essentially be a fixed system. So why not just use a much simpler fixed site point system and give the question poster free rein over the game point system? It would be simpler for you to implement (I think) and easier for the user to use with more options for them in terms of scoring their game.

Re: Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box) – May 1, 2009 1:40 PM (edited 5/1/09 9:40 AM)
Talraen (2373 posts) Doesn't Play with Others
Rating: Not Rated
What it comes down to is that if I was going to do that, I may as well not do anything, because we already have that system. And like I said, I couldn't work on this for a while anyway, so feel free to just keep doing what you're doing. If I do get the time, I'll make my system and if you don't like it, you don't need to use it. But this debate is wearing on me.

Re: Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box) – May 1, 2009 1:54 PM (edited 5/1/09 9:54 AM)
Cuzzdog (1522 posts) Head of Gamer Corner R&D
Rating: Not Rated
What do you mean you may as well not do anything? There are a lot of good points stated out here. The release scheduler, hiding the answers/other posts from other potential players, even a more robust game point system would be nice. Just don't restrict how game points can be done because you're tying them to site points. For instance, what if I wanted to post suduku puzzles and give out 1 point for every right square? Or if i wanted to grade on a percentage of 100? Or even this game here, which you posted, had 24 parts to it. All of these examples would be hard to grade if I only had 3 game points I could assign, and as far as I can tell, the only reason you're handing out 3 points is because you want to tie them to the site points.

Re: Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box) – May 1, 2009 2:01 PM (edited 5/1/09 10:01 AM)
Talraen (2373 posts) Doesn't Play with Others
Rating: Not Rated
The problem with DFtL isn't the interface, it's the fact that its misusing the site point scheme. If I'm not fixing that aspect of it, there's no reason to make a module. I mean, no matter what UI I create, it isn't going to be flexible enough to allow any possible game. Unless the UI was just (wait for it...) forum posts.

Re: Trivia Module (i.e., More Stuff that Should Be in the Suggestion Box) – May 1, 2009 2:10 PM (edited 5/1/09 10:10 AM)
Cuzzdog (1522 posts) Head of Gamer Corner R&D
Rating: Not Rated
Isn't that essentially what you're making? A special forum post where responses are hidden until you have responded yourself and instead of positive/negative ratings, the thread owner can assign a special score to your reply? Also leader boards and a release scheduler, which would be Good Things. This would allow for any kind of game, fix the misusing of the site point scheme, and add value to any game type thread posted.

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